Episode 66
The Health Workforce in Times of Crisis
In this episode, we discuss the challenges faced by the health workforce in fragile settings such as conflict zones and areas hit by political and economic crises. Our guests share their first-hand experiences and insights on how health systems and workers strive to provide care under extreme conditions. This episode is part of the six-part mini-series "Stories of Resilience: Local Lives and Health Systems," brought to you by ReBUILD for Resilience (see 'useful links' for links to the other episodes from this series).
During this episode, there are repeated references to war and conflict with first-hand experiences of illness and trauma which you may find distressing.
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to Connecting Citizens to Science
00:42 Introduction to the Health Workforce in Fragile Settings
01:20 Insights from Dr. Nasher Al-Aghbari in Yemen
01:46 Global Challenges with Dr. Jim Campbell
02:32 Welcoming Remarks by Dr. Kim Ozano
02:53 Dr. Wesam Mansour on Health Workers in Gaza
04:08 Dr. Nasher’s Experiences in Yemen
07:39 The Role of WHO with Dr. Jim Campbell
10:53 System vs. Individual Resilience
12:46 International Support and Building Resilience
15:18 Emergency Response vs. Long-Term Efforts
17:21 Health Worker Migration Issues
21:55 Key Advice for Strengthening Resilience
24:48 Concluding Remarks and Call to Action
In this episode:
Dr Wesam Mansour, Post-Doctoral Research Associate, Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, UK.
Wesam is a physician, a Paediatric and Neonatology Specialist and a Fellow at the International Society for Quality in Healthcare (ISQua), with a Ph.D. in Health Policy and Management. At Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, Wesam is a research associate at the Department of International Public Health. For the ReBUILD programme, she coordinates the work with ReBUILD’s country partners, particularly those in Lebanon.
Dr Nasher Al-Aghbari - Head of Paediatric Department, Al-Thawra General Modern Teaching Hospital, Sana'a, Yemen.
Nasher Al-Aghbari is a paediatric consultant in the Paediatric Department at Al-Thawra General Teaching Modern Hospital in Sana’a, Yemen. He is the Head of the Paediatric Emergency Department. He is also a member of the Teaching Panel in the Arab Board Membership. He has undertaken research for the past 15 years. As part of his Masters degree and PhD at LSTM, Dr. Al-Aghbari worked on blood diseases in children in Africa and Yemen and pulmonary childhood tuberculosis in Yemen.
Mr Jim Campbell - Director of the Health Workforce Department, World Health Organization, Geneva.
Jim Campbell is the Director of the Health Workforce Department at the World Health Organisation. He oversees the development and implementation of global public goods, evidence and tools to inform investments in the education, employment and retention of the health and care workforce in pursuit of global health security, universal health coverage and the Sustainable Development Goals.
Useful links:
- Gender, health systems resilience and equity - Connecting Citizens to Science - In the second episode of a six-part mini-series by ReBUILD for Resilience, we explore the intersection of gender and health systems in fragile settings. Hosted by Kim and co-hosted by Abriti Arjyal from HERD International, the episode features insights from Dr. Rouham Yamout from the American University of Beirut and Dr. Val Percival from the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs (NPSIA) at Carleton University. The discussion covers the impact of gender dynamics on health systems during crises like the COVID-19 pandemic and armed conflicts, emphasising community-led, participatory approaches to promote gender equality and resilience in health systems.
- Revisiting Resilience in Health Systems Research - Connecting Citizens to Science - This conversation is the first part of a mini-series titled 'Stories of Resilience - Local Lives and Health Systems', powered by the ReBUILD for Resilience research consortium. This podcast episode, hosted by Dr. Kim Ozano and co-hosted by Professor Sophie Witter, engages in an insightful discussion on health systems resilience, particularly in fragile settings affected by violence, conflict, pandemics, and other shocks.
- Research on gender and close-to-community providers of health care – providing policy guidance in a pandemic - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- How to attract and retain health workers in rural areas of fragile states? Findings from a labour market survey in Guinea - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- “Posting policies don’t change because there is peace or war” - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Establishing a responsive & equitable health workforce post-conflict & post-crisis: lessons from ReBUILD research - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Understanding HRH recruitment in post-conflict settings: an analysis of central-level policies and processes in Timor-Leste (1999–2018) - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Why do people become health workers? Analysis from life histories in four post‐conflict and post‐crisis countries - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- How do health workers experience and cope with shocks? Learning from four fragile and conflict-affected health systems in Uganda, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe and Cambodia - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Evolution of policies on human resources for health: opportunities and constraints in four post-conflict and post-crisis settings - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Incentives for health workers to stay in post and in rural areas: findings from four conflict- and crisis-affected countries - Rebuild ConsortiumRebuild Consortium
- Essential public health functions: a guide to map and measure national workforce capacity
- Introducing ReBUILD for Resilience - health systems researchRebuild Consortium
- National workforce capacity for essential public health functions: operational handbook for country-led contextualization and implementation
- National workforce capacity to implement the essential public health functions including a focus on emergency preparedness and response
- Fair share for health and care: gender and the undervaluation of health and care work
- WHO health workforce support and safeguards list (2023)
- Bilateral agreements on health worker migration and mobility: Maximizing health system benefits and safeguarding health workforce rights and welfare through fair and ethical international recruitment
- National health workforce accounts: a handbook, second edition
- Working for health and growth: investing in the health workforce
- Global strategy on human resources for health: Workforce 2030
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Transcript
Dr Kim Ozano: Hello listeners and welcome
to Connecting Citizens to Science.
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:I'm Dr.
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:Kim Ozano, and this is a podcast where
we discuss the ways that researchers
4
:connect with communities across the
world to solve challenges together.
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:Today's episode is the third of
a six part mini series brought
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:to you by ReBUILD for Resilience.
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:ReBUILD is a research consortium that
examines health systems resilience in
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:fragile settings that experience violence,
conflict, pandemics, and other shocks.
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:And the focus of today's episode
is the health workforce in fragile
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:settings, including those that have
been affected by conflict, disease,
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:outbreaks, political and economic crisis.
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:Today we hear from Dr.
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:Nasher Al-Aghbari, who is a pediatrician
providing healthcare and war-torn
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:Yemen at the Al-Thawra General
Modern Teaching Hospital in Sana'a.
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:Dr.
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:Nasher shares firsthand experiences of the
challenges faced by the health workforce.
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:As they struggled to deliver health care
with limited resources, minimal to no
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:salary, inadequate equipment and medicines
necessary to save lives, and all while
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:attacks are occurring on the doorsteps
of health facilities and hospitals.
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:The prolonged conflict has taken a
devastating toll on the physical,
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:psychological, and professional
wellbeing of the health workforce.
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:We are also joined by Dr.
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:Jim Campbell, the Director of the
Health Workforce Department at
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:the World Health Organization.
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:Dr.
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:Jim Campbell reflects on the similar
experiences being shared from across 40
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:countries who are also facing emergencies.
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:Jim states that public health is under
threat worldwide and speaks about the role
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:of international organisations in building
resilient health systems to adequately
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:support the health workforce who are
working in these very difficult contexts.
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:To help us understand more about
the workforce in fragile settings.
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:We have our co-host Dr.
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:Wesam Mansour from the Liverpool
School of Tropical Medicine.
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:Through Wesam's work with ReBUILD.
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:She is being focusing on understanding
the contribution of the health
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:workforce to health systems resilience.
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:Their role during the crisis time,
including their capacities and coping
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:strategies, they use to be able to
respond to the population's needs.
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:And the support needed both during and
post crisis, which is currently lacking.
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:There are parts of this episode
that are graphic and some
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:listeners may find distressing.
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:Hello everyone.
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:And a warm welcome to the podcast.
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:We're very pleased to have you all
here for this important conversation.
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:Dr.
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:Nasher Al-Aghbari and Dr.
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:Jim Campbell, we're very much looking
forward to your insights, but before we
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:begin, let's hear from our co-host, Dr.
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:Wesam Mansour.
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:Wesam, welcome to the podcast.
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:Perhaps you could set us up a little bit
by highlighting some of the key things we
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:need to be thinking about when considering
the health workforce in fragile contexts.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Thank you for the
introduction, Kim, and welcome to
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:our broadcast today, Nasher and Jim.
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:Let me start by clarifying that
I'm a medical doctor by background,
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:and I can understand well how it
could be for health workers to
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:work on the frontline in fragile
context or in low resource settings.
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:I know about the challenges that
health workers can face, the
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:stressors they are prone to.
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:But when we speak about the armed
conflict situation, this is, of
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:course, another level of stress.
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:Unfortunately, for a few months
now, I'm hearing from my colleagues
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:in Gaza about what they face.
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:I hear about the daily struggles
of providing care under fire, where
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:health facilities are under attack.
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:And they see their friends,
family members, children, dying
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:every day in front of them.
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:I hear from them about how they feel.
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:They feel low sense of self efficacy,
vulnerability, helplessness,
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:and inadequacy because they
cannot help their patient.
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:And of course, they cannot
provide the health services
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:that their populations need.
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:But at the end of the day, I
can see how they can still show
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:incredible resilience and dedication.
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:Nasher, I know you can relate to this
situation as a medical doctor in Yemen.
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:And today I want you to share with us
your own experience and the experiences
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:of your colleagues during the
protracted conflict situation in Yemen.
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:Dr Nasher Al-Aghbari: Thank you Wesam.
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:As you know, Yemen is a very poor, uh,
country the health system in Yemen before
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:war the health system is very fragile.
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:Now during this war, the health
worker is facing many problems,
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:like financial problem, economic
problem, also psychiatric problem.
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:They are suffering for everything.
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:They cannot come to our hospital
working because they have no transport.
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:The road is broken, bombing all time
morning, afternoon, evening, so they
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:are not coming all day to the hospital.
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:Our health worker, they didn't give
them salary since nine year or 10
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:years, they didn't give them any money.
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:They are working no salary.
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:So, some relative not allow the health
worker to go to the hospitals because
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:they are no secure, because they
are bombing in front of the hospital.
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:Also, there is some
physical trauma for him.
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:From the glasses broken in the
hospital, they are wounded.
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:Also, they are crying all the time.
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:They are afraid from bombing
because the bombing is very loud.
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:You cannot imagine what is this.
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:This is very difficult working in the
hospital because they are bombing the
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:street, just the street near the hospital.
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:I see many patient.
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:I remember one woman to
come to the hospital.
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:She can't pay for the drugs, and
this child two months old only.
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:She came to me to told
me 'I will go home'.
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:I thought why you are going to home
because your child is very sick?
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:He had renal failure.
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:He cannot pass urine at all.
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:I told 'Why you are going to
home because this child will
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:die?' She told me 'Let him die'.
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:Very easy.
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:I told 'No, but this is very difficult.
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:He will die in the street'.
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:She told me, 'No problem.
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:Let him die.
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:Let him die.'
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:Uh, one woman, she came to our hospital
with her child with convulsions.
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:You know, we have no drugs.
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:We have no canula for this
child to stop the convulsions.
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:We send the mother outside to buy canula
and buy drugs to stop the convulsions.
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:When she come back, the child already
expired and she just collapsed.
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:She is crying all the day.
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:She is shouting for the doctors, for
the nurse, for the health worker,
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:shouting, but this is not our mistake.
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:This is mistake due to the war.
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:We haven't nothing at all.
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:And also the health sister, uh, she starts
working with me and she start crying.
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:She is crying, crying all day.
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:And then she didn't come to the hospital.
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:I asked her, 'Why you not come?'.
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:She told me 'I can't because
I am crying all the day'.
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:She's crying all the day.
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:She cannot facing this problem.
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:She told me I cannot see the
patient die in front of me.
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:This is just some situation in Yemen.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: It's really a
devastating situation and I cannot
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:imagine how health workers face that
constant danger, all different forms
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:of violence and how that affects their
mental health, making it of course more
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:difficult for them to continue providing
the health care and the requirements they
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:need to fulfill for their population.
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:But Jim, in such situation, what
are the role of international
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:organisations like the W.H.O.
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:In supporting the resilience of these
health workforce in Yemen and in other
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:fragile and conflict affected settings?
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:Dr Jim Campbell: So, thank you, Dr.
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:Wesam and Dr.
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:Nasher.
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:As-salamu alaykum to you both.
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:Just to, to express solidarity
with the work of Dr.
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:Nasher and all his colleagues in
Yemen and the lived realities, the
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:lived experience that we just heard.
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:The challenges of that day to
day work environment, conflict,
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:uh, resource constraints.
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:Um, populations with their anxieties,
with their illnesses, the mental health
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:stress, the impact that is coming into
this, and whilst Yemen is the topic
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:here now, it's one of just many, many
examples around the world that W.H.O.
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:Is contending with.
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:So, Dr.
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:Wesam, you mentioned in your introduction,
across the Middle East, in Gaza,
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:some of the stories that we're, we're
seeing through our networks, through
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:our engagement, but also in the media.
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:Heartbreaking to see these live realities.
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:So, if we look around the world
today, over 40 emergencies, the W.H.O.
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:Is responding to in terms of the
conflict related events; in Gaza, in
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:Ukraine, in Sudan, in the Sahel, in
Afghanistan, Iraq and many others.
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:But also then the infectious disease
outbreaks, the cholera, um, multi-country
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:outbreaks of cholera that we're
seeing with all the climate related
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:disasters and the impact of that.
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:Impacting our lived environments,
the environments where our
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:populations are engaged.
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:So, this is a true reality for W.H.O.
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:on a multiple, multiple scale and what Dr.
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:Nasher was sharing with us there, we're
hearing similar testimony from each
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:and every one of these environments.
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:Public health is under threat worldwide.
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:When it comes then to, Wesam, the
whole issue of resilience, which I
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:know is part of the ReBUILD work, then
we've got to start to look at what
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:are we actually interested in here?
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:Are we interested in the resilience
of the health system to respond
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:to the emergency, to the conflict,
to the humanitarian disaster?
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:Or are we looking at the resilience
of the individual to operate in
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:a substandard system to respond
to the needs of the population?
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:And those two questions
are very different.
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:It's not necessarily the
system is unable to respond.
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:Every worker in that system has
got this pressure upon them.
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:I think, Nasher, you gave the story of
the mother and the young infant, and just
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:the lack of equipment, lack of supplies.
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:It wasn't the worker's fault.
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:So is it the system that should be
resilient, or is it the worker that should
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:be resilient in a dysfunctioning system?
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:And we need to tease
out these differences.
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:The W.H.O.
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:perspective is we fix the broken system.
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:We don't fix resilience
of an individual worker.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Do you think
we can separate the resilience
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:of the health system from the
resilience of the workforce?
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:Dr Jim Campbell: I think
we can, Wesam, yes.
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:And I think we must, I think, I
think there's a moral obligation upon
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:stakeholders not to burden workers
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:with the expectation that their resilience
or lack of resilience is the factor.
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:I'll give you a concrete example
that helps think this through.
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:During the COVID pandemic, we
standardised, uh, W.H.O's approach
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:to assess the impact on health
and care workers worldwide.
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:We looked across the different domains
of their physical health, their mental
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:health, the infections, the morbidity,
the mortality, but we looked also
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:at the role of employers, and the
role of government employers, the
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:role of private employers, to create
environments which are productive,
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:which remove stress from the worker,
which remove anxiety from the worker.
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:Is the employer ensuring that these
workers are in situations where they
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:are resourced, where they are enabled,
the equipment, the supply chain, uh, the
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:remuneration is coming through, etc, etc.
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:And we've got to look at those
obligations, that moral duty that exists.
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:It is a duty of care to the
worker as well as to the
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:population that the worker serves.
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:And we need to disentangle these two.
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:And Nasher's, Nasher's example that
he gave of those lived experiences
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:in the hospital, in this conflict
scenario, where transferring the
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:responsibility in the entire system
collapsed to an individual worker is,
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:is not appropriate and it's not right.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: Dr.
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:Nasher, I understand you received some
support internationally how has that
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:support, strengthened the resilience
of both the workforce and the system?
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:Dr Nasher Al-Aghbari: Yeah, the support
from Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine
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:and from Habibti Liverpool, they start
to give us a small amount of the money.
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:Maybe £200 per month, and we
did small group to encourage
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:the health worker to come.
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:We give some money, we can buy
some medication for people.
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:This amount is increased about £2, 000.
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:Before that we have three
or four health worker.
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:Now we have 40 health worker.
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:They are working with us.
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:This is because LSTM and have a
Habibti Liverpool, they help us.
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:Also we buy some
medication for poor people.
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:We can do some investigation for
them because everything in our
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:hospital or other hospital, uh,
government hospital, they can buy
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:for admission, for investigation,
for treatment, for everything.
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:Uh, so sometimes we help patients
sometimes, we help health worker.
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:Dr Jim Campbell: Is it acceptable that Dr.
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:Nasher and his colleagues in Yemen,
that workers in Afghanistan, workers in
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:Sudan should not receive remuneration
for years and years and years on end.
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:Is that an acceptable proposition in the
21st century that, uh, the conflict allows
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:us to continue to have that expectation?
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:I would say no.
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:Um, these are workers who are
owed an obligation, a duty of care
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:that we should be insisting upon.
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:And wonderful as it is that the Friends
of Liverpool are stepping in, and
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:other friends of organisations step in
with charity, but we shouldn't expect
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:health systems to be run on charity.
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:And so there's a moral obligation.
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:There's a solidarity obligation.
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:There's a public health obligation,
to actually ensure resources are made
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:available in these conflict scenarios
to ensure that we can get beyond that.
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:Yes.
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:As we saw during COVID, the capability
of humankind, the capability of health
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:and care workers to step forward, to
volunteer, to be there, that's, that's the
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:role that they take, that is wonderful and
should be continuously recognised, but we
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:can't go beyond that short term emergency
phase and make it become the norm.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Great.
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:Thanks, Jim.
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:And that brings me to a question;
what do you think about the tensions
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:between the emergency responses
and the long term efforts to
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:foster health workforce resilience?
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:Dr Jim Campbell: So I think in every
environment there's always the balance
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:of what are the key policy priorities
in front of us for the next 24 hours,
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:the next seven days, the next 30 days?
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:What is it we must deliver?
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:And obviously we want to
ensure improvements in
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:population health outcomes.
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:We wanna be able to treat trauma, we
want to be able to treat mental health.
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:The second element of it then
in parallel is to say, well,
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:actually, what is the rebuild?
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:What is the forward vision?
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:What is the developmental phase of this?
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:And when is that going to kick in?
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:And when can we start to transition
to some of that thinking?
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:Health workers around the world
today are exhausted, whether
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:they're in conflict situations or
in their in normal environments.
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:They're exhausted from
the pressures of COVID.
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:They're exhausted from the
pressures of the working conditions.
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:There are shortages in every
single country around the
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:world, in some form or another.
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:So how do we ensure the long term
resources are coming through accordingly?
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:I would put the emphasis on the
system resilience, because we know
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:if the system is stronger, the worker
is more efficient, more productive,
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:more engaged, more motivated, which
gives us improvement in quality and
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:improvement in patient outcomes.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Thanks, Jim.
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:Unfortunately, in such situation, we
find that most of these health workers
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:leave the country and I know this is like
as a chronic problem in Yemen, right?
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:For the protracted conflict situation
in Yemen for 10 years now, many of the
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:health workers have left the country
looking for better opportunities, safer
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:countries and places to stay and work.
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:There should be a call for urgent
actions and intersectoral collaboration
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:to find a way to support health
workers, to strengthen health systems
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:resilience, and especially in this
context, we need strong actions.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: Wesam, I think
that's really important important.
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:Dr.
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:Nasher, anything you would
like to share in response?
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:Dr Nasher Al-Aghbari: I wish
the war is stopped, I wish this.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: Of course.
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:Dr Jim Campbell: Nasher, absolutely,
that’s that’s the fundamental and
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:unless we tackle the root case issue
of these conflicts through national,
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:regional, and global mechanisms...
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:unless we look at the vested interest for
conflict, the interferences in conflict,
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:and tackle those and call them out.
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:We're never going to be able to
compensate for some of those issues.
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:So, uh, W.H.O.
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:Is preparing a new paper for publication
in November on attacks on healthcare.
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:It's looking at the rise over the last
20 years and more in the last five years.
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:increasing number incidents and the
prevalence of conflict on the attacks,
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:the deliberate attacks, the clear,
motivation for warring parties, political
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:leadership, different stakeholders to
deliberately attack health institutions,
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:health facilities, ambulances, medical
and healthcare personnel to prevent
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:them from serving the populations.
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:This is becoming an
epidemic of its own right.
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:And so we've got to come back.
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:Nasher, your wish is shared by all of us.
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:We must tackle the root causes of
conflict and make clear that attacks
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:on health care is unacceptable.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Could you elaborate more
on what is this paper is looking at and
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:how it can help us move things forward?
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:Dr Jim Campbell: Yes, you mentioned
in the Middle East in particular,
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:has got the challenges that
we're seeing at record levels.
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:So what is the reality?
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:What is the incidence of
conflict that we're seeing?
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:What's the incidence on the
numbers on attacks on health care?
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:Are we reaching proportions?
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:The questions become, why are we
starting to see this increase?
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:Why are the international
humanitarian law, UN resolutions,
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:why are they no longer having
the impact that was intended?
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:Where is there a clear
breach of those provisions?
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:And therefore, what are some of the
opportunities that we need to be,
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:what, not the opportunity, but what
are the key points in the contemporary
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:discussion, given that the sort
of empirical base of conflict.
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:Where do we need to be looking?
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:Do the instruments need
to be strengthened?
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:Does accountability
need to be strengthened?
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:Do we need to prosecute noncompliance?
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:Do we need to hold people
to greater to account?
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:Meanwhile, what can we do
through stakeholder engagement?
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:What can we do through partnership?
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:What's the role of the Gulf states.
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:What's the role of the Middle East groups?
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:The Arab League of Nations?
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:What's the role of the African
Union in these debates?
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:What's the political leadership role to
have peer mechanisms which hold people to
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:account because it can't be sustainable.
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:Uh, we can't accept
this as the new normal.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: Yeah, I agree.
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:And I'm looking forward to reading
it because I personally, with the
348
:situation in the Middle East, I think
that will be a great piece of work and
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:it will guide us as a researcher and
academics on how can we support health
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:systems resilience and health workforce
resilience in such a fragile context.
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:Dr Jim Campbell: Absolutely.
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:And Wesam, it is very much in the
sharing, please help us to bring
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:the evidence together on this where,
um, it's a partnership with the
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:World Innovation Summit for Health.
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:The paper and the debate will
continue at the forum in November.
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:But more importantly, how do we then get
this evidence into practitioners hands
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:into academics and into researchers
hands to really call for accountability.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: I think that brings
us very succinctly to the end of the
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:podcast, where we ask for the one
piece of advice that you would give
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:to researchers and others trying to
strengthen the resilience of both the
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:health workforce and the health system.
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:Wesam, maybe you could start
with that piece of advice.
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:Dr Wesam Mansour: I believe good
governance is critical, and this should
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:include strong coordination mechanisms
between international organisations and
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:NGOs, especially with the role they are
playing in supporting the humanitarian
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:response during and post conflicts.
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:And by Having strong coordination
mechanisms between these organisations
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:and the national governments
in conflict affected settings.
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:I think these can support health
systems resilience and health
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:workforce resilience in these contexts.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: Thanks, Wesam.
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:I'm a real call for collaboration
and working together there.
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:So thank you very much.
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:Dr.
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:Nasher, firstly, I want to say thank
you so much for joining the podcast
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:and for giving your lived experiences,
that are clearly very traumatic.
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:I also know how difficult it was to come
to Liverpool and be able to speak to us.
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:So thank you for making
that very difficult journey.
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:What's the piece of advice you
would like others to hear when
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:supporting the health workforce?
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:Dr Nasher Al-Aghbari: Yes.
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:Uh, I wish the work of W.H.O.
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:and other organisation not
to be lead by politics.
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:This will facilitate the aid to us,
and I wish that there is transparency
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:in the distribution of aid.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: Thank you very much, Dr.
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:Nasher.
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:I think that's a very important piece
of advice that you have shared there.
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:Jim, would you like to give a
piece of advice to others who are
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:very passionate to support Dr.
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:Nasher and his colleagues and
people around the world who are
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:trying to deliver healthcare in
very, very difficult situations?
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:Dr Jim Campbell: Yeah, Kim.
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:I mean, I think advice is one thing,
but I would I would suggest that we
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:also need to come back to evidence.
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:What does the evidence tell
us that is critical here.
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:And for the workers huge appreciation
for those workers in these these
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:complex scenarios who continue to
provide services, but appreciation and
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:applause is not the action that we need.
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:The evidence tells us that we must
come back to looking at the duty of
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:care to the health and care workforce,
largely women all around the world.
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:Make sure that the environment in
which they serve is protected from
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:attacks, it's protected from any
harassment, it's protected with
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:decent occupational health and safety.
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:To Nasher and his colleagues
working at the hospital there in
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:the pediatric unit, they should be
able to go to work every single day
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:knowing that they are empowered,
enabled, and supported in that work.
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:And every one of us has an
obligation towards that duty of care.
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:That's the evidence.
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:That's the moral obligation.
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:It's the empirical basis, and it's
the right thing to do, irrespective
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:of the country, the health
system, the conflict that exists.
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:Dr Kim Ozano: I think that's a great
place to end the podcast and a wonderful
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:reflection to think about moving forward.
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:So at this point, I would like to say,
thank you very much to our guests, Dr.
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:Nasher Al-Aghbari and Dr.
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:Jim Campbell for sharing your experiences
and extremely insightful reflections.
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:Also, thank you to Dr.
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:Wesam Mansour for co-hosting and
adding important considerations
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:to this conversation.
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:Listeners just as a reminder, this
episode is part of six part mini
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:series, entitled Stories of Resilience:
Local Lives and Health Systems.
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:So do have a listen to all of the episodes
as they provide a really excellent
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:opportunity to learn more about health
systems in fragile contexts until
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:next time, thank you for listening.