Episode 67

Non-state and informal actors in fragile settings

In this episode, we explore the critical role of non-state actors and informal providers in health systems within fragile settings. Our guests share insights on the legitimacy, roles and challenges of informal and non-state actors. This is the fourth episode in the six-part miniseries "Stories of Resilience: Local Lives and Health Systems," brought to you by ReBUILD for Resilience (see ‘useful links’ for links to the other episodes from the series).

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Connecting Citizens to Science

00:14 Overview of ReBUILD for Resilience

00:31 Non-State Actors and Informal Providers in Health Systems

01:12 Introducing the Guests

02:31 Understanding Non-State and Informal Actors

03:19 Current Situations in Myanmar and Sierra Leone

04:59 Roles and Impact of Informal Providers

07:59 Challenges and Coordination in Crisis Situations

14:02 Advice for Improving Health Systems in Fragile Settings

18:04 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode:

Dr. Karin Diaconu - Reader, Research Lead, Institute for Global Health and Development

Karin is a health policy and systems researcher interested in how to achieve better health outcomes for disadvantaged groups and persons living in fragile, conflict affected and vulnerable settings. She has been involved with the ReBUILD for Resilience programme since it began and is interested in understanding how communities and health systems can better work together to support health, particularly in situations where communities have often been disempowered due to longstanding crises.

Dr. Kyu Kyu Than - Research Director, Burnet Institute Myanmar

Kyu Kyu is a health system researcher from Myanmar who is passionate about advocating for gender-equitable and inclusive healthcare access for the most vulnerable population. She is currently a Research Director at Burnet Institute Myanmar and is also one of the Principal Investigator for the ReBUILD consortium. Her expertise and leadership in public health have earned her recognition both nationally and internationally, making her a pivotal figure in shaping health policies and initiatives in Myanmar. She is a researcher who is well known for her dedication and courage towards health policy shift for the health care workers in the least developed communities.

Ayesha Idriss - Principal Investigator, ReBUILD for Resilience - Sierra Leone, Institute for Development (IfD)

Ayesha is a seasoned pharmacist, dedicated educator, and accomplished multidisciplinary researcher. As the research lead at the Institute for Development (IfD) for the ReBUILD for Resilience programme, Ayesha focuses on strengthening health systems in fragile and conflict-affected states. Her research addresses critical health challenges in Sierra Leone, including non-communicable disease interventions, Community Health Workers (CHW) motivation and health policy implementation. Pursuing a PhD in Global Health at Queen Margaret University, Edinburgh, her doctoral research enhances healthcare delivery in diverse communities, including the informal health sector, emphasising culturally sensitive approaches. Ayesha’s work bridges research and practice, fostering positive change in healthcare systems and promoting equity in access to healthcare services.

Useful Links;

  • The Health Workforce in Times of Crisis - Connecting Citizens to Science - This episode is the third part of the six-part mini-series "Stories of Resilience: Local Lives and Health Systems," brought to you by ReBUILD for Resilience. In this episode, we discuss the challenges faced by the health workforce in fragile settings such as conflict zones and areas hit by political and economic crises. Our guests share their first-hand experiences and insights on how health systems and workers strive to provide care under extreme conditions.
  • Gender, health systems resilience and equity - Connecting Citizens to Science - In the second episode of a six-part mini-series by ReBUILD for Resilience, we explore the intersection of gender and health systems in fragile settings. Hosted by Kim and co-hosted by Abriti Arjyal from HERD International, the episode features insights from Dr. Rouham Yamout from the American University of Beirut and Dr. Val Percival from the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs (NPSIA) at Carleton University. The discussion covers the impact of gender dynamics on health systems during crises like the COVID-19 pandemic and armed conflicts, emphasising community-led, participatory approaches to promote gender equality and resilience in health systems.
  • Revisiting Resilience in Health Systems Research - Connecting Citizens to Science - This conversation is the first part of a mini-series titled 'Stories of Resilience - Local Lives and Health Systems', powered by the ReBUILD for Resilience research consortium. This podcast episode, hosted by Dr. Kim Ozano and co-hosted by Professor Sophie Witter, engages in an insightful discussion on health systems resilience, particularly in fragile settings affected by violence, conflict, pandemics, and other shocks.
  • Introducing ReBUILD for Resilience - health systems researchRebuild Consortium - ReBUILD for Resilience examines health system resilience in fragile settings experiencing violence, conflict, pandemics and other shocks. We are an international research consortium that aims to produce high-quality, practical, multidisciplinary and scalable research which can be used to improve the health and lives of many millions of people. ReBUILD for Resilience is funded by the UK government.

Want to hear more podcasts like this?

Follow Connecting Citizens to Science on your usual podcast platform or YouTube to hear more about the ways that researchers connect with people to co-produce solutions to global challenges.

The podcast cuts across disciplines, including health systems strengthening, gender and intersectionality, tropical diseases (NTD’s, TB, Malaria), maternal and child healthcare (antenatal and postnatal care), mental health and wellbeing, vector-borne diseases, climate change, Participatory Action Research (PAR), co-production and participatory methods -   all linked to community inclusion, engagement and shifting power dynamics.   

If you would like your  project or programme to feature in an episode or mini-series, get in touch with the producers of Connecting Citizens to Science, the SCL Agency.  

Transcript
Speaker:

Dr Kim Ozano: Hello listeners and

welcome to Connecting Citizens to

2

:

Science, a podcast where we hear

about the ways that researchers

3

:

connect with communities across the

world to solve challenges together.

4

:

I'm Dr.

5

:

Kim Ozano and today's episode is

the fourth in a six part miniseries

6

:

by ReBUILD for Resilience.

7

:

ReBUILD is a research consortium that

examines health systems resilience in

8

:

fragile settings that experience violence,

conflict, pandemics, and other shocks.

9

:

Today we will be hearing about the

complex world of non-state actors and

10

:

informal providers in health systems.

11

:

Our guests will discuss the legitimacy

of non-state actors and informal

12

:

providers in fragile settings from

initial response to longer-term roles.

13

:

Often we see humanitarian organisations

step in during disasters or conflicts,

14

:

absorbing these initial shocks, but

they face challenges in transformation.

15

:

In some settings, where local governments

are either absent or dysfunctional

16

:

due to war, political instability or

a lack of capacity non-state actors

17

:

often fill the void, but formalising

their roles remains challenging.

18

:

To delve deeper into these critical

issues we have Dr Kyu Kyu Than, who is

19

:

a public health specialist and a health

systems researcher with a speciality in

20

:

sexual reproductive and maternal health.

21

:

She is also a medical doctor with a

PhD from the University of Melbourne

22

:

and is currently the research

director for the Myanmar country

23

:

programme at the Burnett Institute.

24

:

She has been leading and managing a

variety of research and service delivery

25

:

projects for the Myanmar programme,

which includes ReBUILD for Resilience.

26

:

We also have with us Ayesha

Idriss, who is a pharmacist and

27

:

multidisciplinary researcher.

28

:

Ayesha has worked on a range

of groundbreaking projects in

29

:

collaboration with international

partners throughout her career.

30

:

Ayesha has also contributed

significantly to the National

31

:

Institute for Health Research Unit

on Health in situations of fragility

32

:

and is a researcher with ReBUILD.

33

:

And as always to help us guide the

conversation, we have a technical

34

:

expert, Dr Karin Diaconu, who

has over 10 years' experience in

35

:

health policy and systems research.

36

:

Karen has worked across several contexts

effected by fragility where health systems

37

:

rely on the help of civil society and

non -state actors or informal providers

38

:

for the planning or delivery of care.

39

:

Karen welcome to the podcast.

40

:

Please do set us up by describing

what non-state and informal actors

41

:

are, and why is it important to

consider them in fragile settings.

42

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: Thank

you very much, Kim.

43

:

In many settings, it is not just the

formal health system that provides health

44

:

services or support to populations.

45

:

In many places and particularly

in emergencies we see a large

46

:

international NGO presence that

comes in to support populations.

47

:

But also, local groups, civil society

groups, or informal providers who have

48

:

been there in the countries for a long

time, they also step in to support

49

:

health of people and communities.

50

:

So, Kyu Kyu and Ayesha, it would be great

to hear what's the current situation in

51

:

your countries and where do you actually

see any informal or non-state providers.

52

:

Dr Kyu Kyu Than: Hello everyone and

I'm from Myanmar, a beautiful country

53

:

in Southeast Asia, but currently in a

fragile and conflict state at the moment.

54

:

We were faced by the COVID pandemic,

and then after the COVID pandemic,

55

:

there was a change of political

situation, which created more fragility

56

:

and conflict into the country.

57

:

So, I think, within this fragility

and conflict settings, we see a lot

58

:

of non-state actors, we see a lot

of donors, international NGOs, civil

59

:

society organisations, and also, we must

not forget the people like community

60

:

health workers, and also some of the

people working on ground as volunteers.

61

:

Ayesha Idriss: I'm Ayesha, I'm

from Sierra Leone, which is a West

62

:

African country, and Sierra Leone

faces significant health challenges.

63

:

Our health system is marked

by history of underfunding

64

:

and infrastructural weaknesses.

65

:

We also have a lot of non-state actors

like the international organisations,

66

:

and also there are community based

organisations, civil societies and the

67

:

informal providers that provide services,

especially in the remote areas, where

68

:

these health facilities are lacking.

69

:

And we have traditional healers,

faith-based healers as well, and they

70

:

come in, and because of the trust people

have in them, they really help the health

71

:

system during times of crisis and shock.

72

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: Could you talk a little

bit more about that and what you've

73

:

seen in practice, what they're actually

doing and how they're supporting people?

74

:

Ayesha Idriss: So, because of the trust

that communities have, especially in

75

:

informal providers, like traditional

healers within the communities, um,

76

:

the health system was able to utilise

them in containing the disease in

77

:

terms of messaging, in terms of things

that they should do with the Ebola.

78

:

So, we're trying to respond to the Ebola

as a health system, but we're really

79

:

going nowhere, until they were brought

in, because the idea of the Ebola was in

80

:

terms of contact through the dead fluid.

81

:

And we have our culture, for

example, we have to wash the

82

:

dead, you know, prior to burial.

83

:

And that was still going on.

84

:

So until they brought in these

informal providers, they actually

85

:

helped in sensitising, the

communities and the people.

86

:

So there was a massive

change and turnaround in terms

87

:

the spread of the disease.

88

:

So, they do play a critical role, they're

very critical because they're close

89

:

to the communities, they trust them.

90

:

And most of the time bringing them

on, and sometimes even in campaigns...

91

:

in what we're doing now with the

ReBUILD that we're working at community

92

:

levels, you know, they've reported

that during campaign like immunisation

93

:

campaigns, stakeholders and all

these other community members, you

94

:

know, coming in really had helped.

95

:

Dr Kyu Kyu Than: Yeah, I like to echo

Ayesha's point on trust between the

96

:

community and the non-state actors.

97

:

For Myanmar during the COVID pandemic,

the trust between the community and the

98

:

non-state actors were really cohesive.

99

:

We can see it in the first wave of

COVID-19, the first and second wave,

100

:

the country was in a real good

state, everyone coming in together.

101

:

When we look at non-state actors, even

the private sector, which normally

102

:

looks to profit, they even came in

Covid and really got hand in hand and

103

:

helping like getting beds, trying to

move to quarantine centres and trying

104

:

to help a lot of the COVID cases get

their clinical care in their settings.

105

:

And the second thing I think is

coordination between non-state actors

106

:

themselves, the INGOs, the CBOs and

the community is also very important.

107

:

The coordination was really perfect

and, uh, understanding the context,

108

:

it's also another important point

that I see, especially during COVID-19

109

:

and even in the political crisis.

110

:

Understanding the country context,

and what is really happening on the

111

:

ground, and trying to leverage some of

the rules and regulation that they had

112

:

from international agencies and some of

the donors were really amazing, really

113

:

tackling and reaching to the community.

114

:

Dr Kim Ozano: Thank you very much.

115

:

it's really interesting to see

these non-state and informal actors

116

:

coming in, and you've really painted

a picture of their role during the

117

:

emergency situation and straight after.

118

:

I wonder if you could tell me a

little bit more about how to ensure

119

:

the safety and the security of these

very important actors during crisis.

120

:

Dr Kyu Kyu Than: I think, especially for

health care workers from all non-state

121

:

actors, and even for state actors, I

think security is the utmost importance.

122

:

We really have to weigh between the

security and provision of health services.

123

:

For example, although you may want to

be giving some of the drugs or some

124

:

of the emergency commodities into

a very conflict affected place, we

125

:

really have to maintain the security

aspect as the first entity, not to

126

:

harm our healthcare workers, also

at the same time ensuring that the

127

:

support is given to the community.

128

:

So, I think there were a lot of strategies

and harm mitigation measures from a lot

129

:

of non-state actors during the crisis.

130

:

And we collectively normally share

the mitigation strategies and

131

:

what is happening on the ground.

132

:

Like in this area, you should not go,

there is fighting happening in this area.

133

:

That means that really understanding

and trying to get a trust in each

134

:

other about each other, that's

really important in crisis.

135

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: Thank you, Kyu Kyu.

136

:

I'm interested about something that we

were discussing earlier, particularly

137

:

Ayesha, I think you brought this out quite

nicely, that the formal health system

138

:

had to reach out to informal providers.

139

:

Could you just reflect a little

bit more on what's happening on the

140

:

ground and what the risks may be

if these two do not communicate, or

141

:

coordinate as Kyu Kyu would put it?

142

:

Ayesha Idriss: The informal providers

are embedded in their communities and

143

:

there's this trust, so I believe the

formal sector should work closely with

144

:

informal sector, you know, more in the

rural areas where, um, facilities are

145

:

lacking, and these informal providers

are often the first point of contact for

146

:

a lot of the population in these areas.

147

:

So, they play that critical role.

148

:

However, it depends on the type of

informal providers because we have

149

:

some like the drug peddlers or sellers,

which come with more risk in terms

150

:

of the services they provide because

they're more financially driven.

151

:

However, I believe there's a way in which

the formal system should try to tap into

152

:

the benefits, you know, and utilise these

benefits of the informal sector providers

153

:

because in doing so, no one kind of

will be left behind because in terms of

154

:

provision of services, even referrals

and other things, they could, you know,

155

:

help with that so that services will be

provided in these underserved populations.

156

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: I think both you and

Kyu Kyu have reflected a lot on what these

157

:

non-state actors bring to the table, and

what the informal providers bring in terms

158

:

of assuring trust and rapid responses.

159

:

I'm wondering if you had any examples

of when you've encountered constraints

160

:

or challenges in relation to the

work that these non-state actors or

161

:

informal providers may bring to, for

example, securing health of people.

162

:

Dr Kyu Kyu Than: Currently, in our country

context, there is a lot of conflict and

163

:

active fighting in different parts of the

country, especially around border areas.

164

:

So, I think, we can say forced

migration into another country,

165

:

which is quite close to the border.

166

:

So, when active conflict happens and

forced migration happens, as you all

167

:

know, there are a lot of diversity,

legal boundaries, challenges

168

:

towards one country and another.

169

:

So, when we say emergency teams are

in border areas, I think some of the

170

:

rules and regulation between these

countries need to be really flexible

171

:

and understanding on the ground to reach

to the people who are really in need.

172

:

At the moment, for a country, non-state

actors for example, you must sign a

173

:

transportation safety protocol, but

when you go there, that safety protocol

174

:

is not, uh, really, uh, abided by.

175

:

You have to change your route of planning

or whatever, because that emergency.

176

:

So, sometimes those have to be understood

by the non-state actors as well, So,

177

:

these are some of the small issues

that we do face on ground, and I think

178

:

it's really important that both the

donors, non-state actors, and even the

179

:

government of like conflict-affected

countries and non-affected countries

180

:

should be really tackling it together

because we do need the togetherness

181

:

in these crisis emergencies.

182

:

Ayesha Idriss: I agree with Kyu

Kyu, you know that there should

183

:

be way that they should work,

you know, with the government.

184

:

And during that time, you know when

there's disaster, they provide their

185

:

service in terms of the food, medication,

you know, other things that they provide.

186

:

Which during, um, the disaster or

emergency, these parallel systems that

187

:

are running are good at that time.

188

:

However, when the situation is kind

of over and in a stable state, it's

189

:

kind of a little bit messy, you

know, how to navigate during this

190

:

stable time is sometimes difficult.

191

:

If the government agencies really try

and put things in, in place, work with

192

:

them closely, I believe the overall

health system will be improved, but

193

:

these are some of the challenges.

194

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: That's a great

reflection on how situations change

195

:

and I guess it's also been a focus

for us in ReBUILD to really reflect

196

:

on how does this changing situation

actually help strengthen the formal

197

:

system, if you like, because they're

doing a great service in the meantime,

198

:

but we should also take some of the

lessons further to the formal system.

199

:

Dr Kim Ozano: I really enjoyed

learning about this and, you know,

200

:

those challenges have been very clear,

so thank you for those descriptions.

201

:

I'm wondering if all three of you, based

on your experience and in your context and

202

:

in your research, what advice would you

give to actors in fragile settings, formal

203

:

and informal, to improve health systems?

204

:

Ayesha Idriss: For me, the advice I'll

give is um, we should not underestimate

205

:

trust, so, try to build trust.

206

:

You know, trust is key in gaining

insights and knowledge, again, with

207

:

minimum potential social bias that

you may have from these providers,

208

:

especially with the informal providers.

209

:

So, some of the time when you work with

them, they're sometimes a little bit

210

:

secretive, but try to build trust and that

rapport, rapport with them is very key.

211

:

Also, working with them, I'll say, try

to be open-minded and try to seek ways

212

:

which the benefits of the work that

they do could be maximised, you know,

213

:

with minimum risk that they provide.

214

:

And also, when working with non-state

actors or informal providers that

215

:

work at local level, try to see how

community ownership could be brought on

216

:

with your work because then when they

leave, you want that sustainability,

217

:

that's how you improve the communities.

218

:

Dr Kim Ozano: Thank you, really

highlighting the importance

219

:

of trust, assessing risk, and

developing that community ownership.

220

:

Thank you very much.

221

:

Kyu Kyu, please.

222

:

Dr Kyu Kyu Than: I think, with the

lessons learned throughout these 3

223

:

years, working with non-state actors is

sometimes when the formal system fails,

224

:

uh, non-state actors must be coherent

and also have trust between each other.

225

:

Not only the trust with the community,

but non-state actors themselves, the

226

:

international community, the CBOs,

the donors must also build trust

227

:

within them and try to create a

coordination body that would help the

228

:

country when the real states fails.

229

:

That doesn't mean that this parallel

coordination mechanism has to be

230

:

lifelong, because as the crisis ease

out, this coordination mechanism may

231

:

help other countries to learn how

these non-state actors coordinate

232

:

and build trust among them, and how

the donors, uh, did some mitigation

233

:

strategies and some of the activities.

234

:

It's like a learning curve

for crisis countries later on.

235

:

So first it's non-state actors,

between themselves, they must

236

:

have trust and coordination.

237

:

And the second thing is, I think we must

not forget, like Ayesha said, that the

238

:

ground people who are on the ground and

who are really facing the difficulties.

239

:

So, this may be seen from the outside

world and people who are inside the

240

:

country may see it very differently.

241

:

So, I think, sometimes the outside

world and the inside country

242

:

and what's really happening on

ground need to merge somewhere.

243

:

So, there must be some information

sharing and real insight sharing,

244

:

uh, of communication mechanism so

that people will really understand.

245

:

Dr Kim Ozano: Thank you for that example.

246

:

It's, it's really complex and

important that we share that

247

:

information and learn from it.

248

:

Thank you.

249

:

Karen, would you like to take us

home with one last piece of advice?

250

:

Dr Karin Diaconu: I think my advice

would actually build on both Kyu Kyu's

251

:

and Ayesha's and really just bring

home the idea that you have to think

252

:

long-term and really privilege different

ways of knowing and of coordinating.

253

:

And I think oftentimes we stay at global

levels and we talk about big INGOs and

254

:

how we bring them in in emergency, but

actually it's also about smaller actors

255

:

and people on the ground, like all of you

have been saying, who need to be there

256

:

and who need to be brought in to the

learning, the planning, the responding,

257

:

and they have different ways of doing

things, different ways of knowing,

258

:

different capabilities, and maybe we

should acknowledge that we have to build

259

:

on that instead of setting it to the side.

260

:

Dr Kim Ozano: Thank you very much.

261

:

And that brings us to

close of the episode.

262

:

I've certainly learned a lot.

263

:

Thank you to our guests and thank

you to our wonderful co-host.

264

:

For our listeners,

thank you for listening.

265

:

We hope you enjoyed the episode.

266

:

This is the fourth in a six-part

miniseries brought to you by ReBUILD.

267

:

So, if you haven't heard the other

episodes, please do revisit them

268

:

for a more holistic view of health

systems in fragile settings.

269

:

Until next time, thank you and goodbye.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Connecting Citizens to Science
Connecting Citizens to Science
Researchers and scientists join with communities and people to address global challenges

About your host

Profile picture for Kim Ozano

Kim Ozano

Research and Development Director at SCL and co-founder and host of the ‘Connecting Citizens to Science’ (CCS) podcast. Kim is a health policy and systems researcher with over 15 years’ experience of designing, delivering and evaluating health and development projects in the Global South and UK. She is an implementation health research specialist, as can be seen from her publications and work at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, where she remains an Honorary lecturer.
Kim creates space in Connecting Citizens to Science for researchers and communities to share their experience of co-production to shape policy and lasting positive change.