Why Indigenous Knowledge is Essential for Health Justice

Speaker: 00:00:04

Dr. Kim Ozano:

2

: 00:00:04

Hello listeners and welcome back

to Connecting Citizens to Science,

3

: 00:00:07

a podcast where we discuss current

research and debates in global health.

4

: 00:00:11

I'm your host, Dr.

5

: 00:00:11

Kim Ozano, and today we're

exploring indigenous knowledge

6

: 00:00:14

systems and their crucial role

in health equity and research.

7

: 00:00:19

Indigenous communities across

the world have long maintained

8

: 00:00:22

holistic approaches to health that

are rooted in their environments

9

: 00:00:25

and collective ways of knowing.

10

: 00:00:27

Yet these perspectives have often

been overlooked or misunderstood

11

: 00:00:30

within global health systems.

12

: 00:00:31

Rebecca Rae: I think when you say the word

Indigenous, there becomes this concept

13

: 00:00:35

of monolith that we're all the same.

14

: 00:00:37

And I think that is one of the biggest

misconceptions is that realising

15

: 00:00:42

that while we may have shared value

systems that really understanding us as

16

: 00:00:48

individual communities really is important

to understanding our own practices

17

: 00:00:55

in each of our different regions.

18

: 00:00:57

Dr. Kim Ozano:

19

: 00:00:57

In this episode , I am joined by Dr.

20

: 00:01:00

Walter Flores, who is a research professor

from the Accountability Research Center at

21

: 00:01:05

the American University in Washington, DC.

22

: 00:01:08

I am also joined by Dr.

23

: 00:01:09

Rebecca Rae, who is a

research lecturer and Dr.

24

: 00:01:12

Lorenda Belone, who is a professor.

25

: 00:01:15

Both Lorenda and Rebecca are from

the University of New Mexico College

26

: 00:01:19

of Population Health within the

Center for Participatory Research.

27

: 00:01:25

All three of our guests today are

Indigenous researchers who have

28

: 00:01:28

dedicated their careers to advocating for

community-led participatory approaches

29

: 00:01:34

that align with Indigenous values.

30

: 00:01:37

We'll discuss the challenges of

working across knowledge systems, the

31

: 00:01:40

intersections of research and activism,

and how indigenous methodologies are

32

: 00:01:44

gaining recognition in global health.

33

: 00:01:50

Walter, welcome to the podcast.

34

: 00:01:52

It's great to have you with us today.

35

: 00:01:54

Walter, what is the relationship

between indigenous communities

36

: 00:01:58

globally with health systems and

health, both historically and now?

37

: 00:02:03

Walter Flores: I would say that from

historians, we know that there is evidence

38

: 00:02:07

that before the European colonisation,

say Indigenous communities all around

39

: 00:02:12

the world, they already had systems to

understanding, to work toward health,

40

: 00:02:17

being in unity with the environment.

41

: 00:02:20

And these systems, despite

all the repressive measure of

42

: 00:02:24

colonisation, are still very much

alive in many parts of the world.

43

: 00:02:28

For instance, in the Americas,

particularly in the Magian Indigenous

44

: 00:02:32

communities, the view and the philosophy

that to be healthy you need to maintain

45

: 00:02:39

harmony in between your family,

your community, but also with your

46

: 00:02:43

environment and to live a balanced life.

47

: 00:02:47

That's a central part of well being and

what is very relevant is that this view,

48

: 00:02:52

this philosophy, although it has been

known, but has been ignored for many

49

: 00:02:57

years, but nowadays, , I've seen that

in my three decades of work, now that

50

: 00:03:02

we are in the middle of this climate

crisis, and also that we are recognising

51

: 00:03:08

that we are in a mental health crisis,

is that I'm seeing that there is an

52

: 00:03:12

interest for this way of working.

53

: 00:03:16

Dr. Kim Ozano:

54

: 00:03:16

Lorenda, would you like to add

any overlooked aspects around

55

: 00:03:21

the understanding of Indigenous

communities and health?

56

: 00:03:24

Lorenda Belone: We may be viewed as

similar, but we are really very different.

57

: 00:03:29

I introduce myself as a Navajo woman,

and for me, we, as Navajos, as a

58

: 00:03:36

Diné woman, Diné is a Navajo term

for ourselves, we are matriarchal,

59

: 00:03:42

matrilineal, so the clans of our

mothers is how we identify ourselves.

60

: 00:03:47

But the communities I may work with

may be patriarchal and it's being

61

: 00:03:53

respectful of the communities you

go into and listen and learn rather

62

: 00:03:59

than imposing our ways of being.

63

: 00:04:02

Dr. Kim Ozano:

64

: 00:04:02

Lorenda and Rebecca, do you feel

this increased interest in Indigenous

65

: 00:04:06

communities and their relationship

with land, as we've already heard, and

66

: 00:04:10

with environment is increased because

of climate change and mental health?

67

: 00:04:15

Lorenda Belone: I believe

there is a huge interest.

68

: 00:04:18

My colleague and I, Dr.

69

: 00:04:19

Nina Wallerstein, we co-teach what

we call a Summer CBPR Institute.

70

: 00:04:27

And it's grounded in Indigenous

knowledge, Indigenous methodologies,

71

: 00:04:31

and the approaches that Indigenous

people use to inform research, to inform

72

: 00:04:41

participatory work with communities.

73

: 00:04:45

There is a huge interest in how better

to do that type of work and that

74

: 00:04:50

Indigenous people approaches make sense.

75

: 00:04:54

Dr. Kim Ozano:

76

: 00:04:54

You mentioned CBPR, that's community based

participatory research, and I understand

77

: 00:05:00

in the University of New Mexico and the

work with Nina Wallerstein, there's a big

78

: 00:05:04

focus on participatory research methods.

79

: 00:05:08

Rebecca, perhaps you could chat us

through why this approach is so well

80

: 00:05:12

known within Indigenous communities and

how it relates to Indigenous ways of

81

: 00:05:17

knowing within the research that we do.

82

: 00:05:20

Rebecca Rae: Sure, but I also like to

touch based on what Walter talked about.

83

: 00:05:23

I think there's also an interest

in Indigenous ways of knowing

84

: 00:05:28

connected to land, because it's

part of the restoration of land.

85

: 00:05:32

And I think it's also because

there's been a lot more

86

: 00:05:34

advocacy from Indigenous people.

87

: 00:05:37

Historically, we've been left out

of these conversations, right?

88

: 00:05:40

Our knowledge way systems have been

left out of ways to manage our land,

89

: 00:05:45

ways to really keep that, as Walter was

talking about, that harmony and balance.

90

: 00:05:51

We have a long history of

really maintaining our lands.

91

: 00:05:54

So, it's not always an open door.

92

: 00:05:56

It's us knocking on the door

to get into these spaces.

93

: 00:06:00

And so part of that is when we talk about

CBPR, that is really that doorway to bring

94

: 00:06:05

communities in because community based

participatory research is really bringing

95

: 00:06:10

in community partners as partners.

96

: 00:06:13

We want to make sure people use that as

an equal partnership and not just as a

97

: 00:06:17

mechanism to get people to the door to be

able to extract knowledge as well, right?

98

: 00:06:22

So, I think we need to be mindful we're

not just extracting knowledge for the

99

: 00:06:25

gain of academia, but really how is that

knowledge being centered in community?

100

: 00:06:30

How is the knowledge that is being shared

really beneficial for the community?

101

: 00:06:34

And that's really a huge push of

CBPR is that we're using community

102

: 00:06:38

driven initiatives that come from

the community to benefit their

103

: 00:06:41

communities, not to benefit academia.

104

: 00:06:44

It can benefit academia, but that

shouldn't be the driving force, right?

105

: 00:06:47

The driving force should be how the

initiatives really impact and benefit

106

: 00:06:52

the communities as the forefront.

107

: 00:06:54

Walter Flores: What is very crucial is

that we need to understand and realise

108

: 00:07:00

that for Indigenous communities, a lot

of the challenges that they are facing

109

: 00:07:04

in terms of health and development is

because of the historical exclusion,

110

: 00:07:09

marginalisation, and oppression.

111

: 00:07:11

So for us as researchers, our goal

should not only be doing the research to

112

: 00:07:17

generate evidence, but how our research

works and facilitate these processes of

113

: 00:07:24

evidence generation with communities,

disseminating knowledge, but more

114

: 00:07:28

importantly, an empowering process that

would open and facilitate inclusion.

115

: 00:07:33

So, for me, the only way that you can

really do that is through participatory

116

: 00:07:38

action research, because any other way

of doing research is extractive, or

117

: 00:07:43

it just isolates itself from the goal

of solidarity with those people facing

118

: 00:07:51

this exclusion or with people oppressed,

which to me, that cannot be separated.

119

: 00:07:55

Once you know the historical conditions

of why Indigenous communities face

120

: 00:08:00

these development challenges, then we

have the responsibility, in my view,

121

: 00:08:06

that the work contributes in closing

these gaps, but also in facilitating

122

: 00:08:11

conditions for community empowerment.

123

: 00:08:13

To facilitate the process of inclusion

we started working with communities

124

: 00:08:17

about issues of access to health.

125

: 00:08:20

But because for communities, health is

important, but also the food security,

126

: 00:08:26

also the environment, then gradually,

with what we have learned about how to

127

: 00:08:31

engage with the state, with government,

with public policies, we have expanded now

128

: 00:08:36

with communities to do monitoring elicit

evidence about food security programmes,

129

: 00:08:42

about policies for the environment.

130

: 00:08:45

It started with health, but

it has expanded to a more

131

: 00:08:49

integrated way of seeing health

and also seeing the environment.

132

: 00:08:52

So this has been the process that we have

been following for the past 15 years.

133

: 00:08:58

Rebecca Rae: I'll just follow up, it's

really creating a co-learning experience.

134

: 00:09:02

You have a lecture, and

then you're listening.

135

: 00:09:04

There really isn't an engagement

process, but then when you're

136

: 00:09:07

bringing people together to learn

in a different way of frameworking.

137

: 00:09:10

It brings in a space of listening.

138

: 00:09:12

It brings in a place of understanding.

139

: 00:09:14

It brings in other world views that

people may not have been introduced to.

140

: 00:09:19

And that's what you learn when you're

working with communities is you

141

: 00:09:22

learn other people's world views.

142

: 00:09:23

And so when you're doing that type of

training, we're really trying to turn

143

: 00:09:27

that process around to, to, understand

when we're bringing people together

144

: 00:09:32

to teach that this isn't just to be

able to push the academic agenda.

145

: 00:09:37

It's really to push the community agenda

and what is important for indigenous

146

: 00:09:42

communities specifically for us.

147

: 00:09:43

And so CBPR is the tool to be able to

come into space to help communities

148

: 00:09:49

really think about creating programmes

that can impact the health and being

149

: 00:09:53

of their own communities, coming

from perspectives of their own

150

: 00:09:57

historical knowledge that has been in

our community since time immemorial.

151

: 00:10:01

Walter Flores: Yes, in my experience,

we as researchers interested in health

152

: 00:10:07

and social justice, we need to develop

the skills for moving and understanding

153

: 00:10:14

two very different languages.

154

: 00:10:16

One is the language that already exists,

that has existed for many years, of

155

: 00:10:21

how communities approach understanding

the issues, how they have dialogues to

156

: 00:10:28

analyse, how they collect the information,

the ways of knowing and learning.

157

: 00:10:32

And then we have the language of

the academia, the Western academia.

158

: 00:10:36

And we need to learn those two

languages because the goal is not to

159

: 00:10:41

teach communities how to learn the

language academia, also is not how

160

: 00:10:46

to we show academia that they should

do in this way, because this has to

161

: 00:10:51

do also with power relationships...

162

: 00:10:53

so what I've seen is that by developing

the skill of moving between those two

163

: 00:10:57

languages, our role as researchers is

also to mediate in between the ways

164

: 00:11:03

of learning, knowing communities,

and how that can be translated

165

: 00:11:06

into the language of academia.

166

: 00:11:07

And then we go back to communities to

see, okay, how can we also represent

167

: 00:11:12

this so we can communicate with academia,

which is the language that influence

168

: 00:11:18

public policy, influence public services.

169

: 00:11:20

Lorenda Belone: I think an important role

as an Indigenous researcher, it's not

170

: 00:11:25

only do we do research with Indigenous

communities, but we're in a really unique

171

: 00:11:31

position in the academy, and that we were

able to access resources, for example,

172

: 00:11:38

with the National Institutes of Health,

we're able to seek research funding,

173

: 00:11:43

we're able to advocate research topics

of interest by our communities, we're

174

: 00:11:48

able to have a voice at the national

level on Indigenous issues and we're

175

: 00:11:56

able to move forward how to conduct

research with Indigenous communities.

176

: 00:12:03

So I, for myself, I see a big part of

my role as an Indigenous researcher is

177

: 00:12:09

just navigating the systems, so that

I can be able to bring resources to

178

: 00:12:14

communities to address their health

topics of interest in the way they

179

: 00:12:19

deem best to address those issues.

180

: 00:12:22

Rebecca Rae: And to add on to Lorenda's

point, as Indigenous researchers

181

: 00:12:25

in academia, I think the other role

is that we are also in the space of

182

: 00:12:30

protecting our communities too, right?

183

: 00:12:32

Like we have to be at the tables

protecting our communities so that

184

: 00:12:36

we aren't also those people who

are coming in extracting knowledge.

185

: 00:12:40

Dr. Kim Ozano:

186

: 00:12:40

Thank you very much.

187

: 00:12:41

And it's really interesting to hear

the role of an Indigenous researcher.

188

: 00:12:46

Walter, do you consider yourself

an Indigenous researcher or

189

: 00:12:49

explain the kind of positionality

and role you feel you have?

190

: 00:12:53

Walter Flores: Yeah, I would say that I

consider myself an Indigenous researcher,

191

: 00:12:57

but also that I'm able to move between

the indigenous and the academia as well.

192

: 00:13:03

I see that my role is that, to mediate

into that because it's a very important

193

: 00:13:09

role, it allows communities to maintain

their identity without having to deal

194

: 00:13:15

with, with academia, but also it helped

me to help to mobilise resources, to

195

: 00:13:22

advancing the community's interest

in their own research, but also

196

: 00:13:26

interest and their demands for rights.

197

: 00:13:28

So, I feel fluid in this role and I

could be fluid within academia, but

198

: 00:13:33

also when I work with communities,

I also feel very comfortable there.

199

: 00:13:36

So, I feel that this kind of role is very

important because as I'm saying, it's

200

: 00:13:42

not that one way should impose the other.

201

: 00:13:45

It's just knowing that those are

different, that they coexist and

202

: 00:13:47

they should benefit from each other.

203

: 00:13:50

Dr. Kim Ozano:

204

: 00:13:50

Rather than extractivism.

205

: 00:13:53

Thank you.

206

: 00:13:53

So, last question, in the last episode

we talked with the Journal of Community

207

: 00:13:59

Systems for Health, and it was raised that

there is a lot of fear around the changing

208

: 00:14:04

political landscape that we're seeing.

209

: 00:14:06

But also within the literature, within

discussions online, we're seeing a

210

: 00:14:10

lot of talk about opportunities as

well as the stress and the epistemic

211

: 00:14:15

injustices that are coming forward.

212

: 00:14:17

Do you have an opinion or anything

you would like to add around the

213

: 00:14:21

current political landscape and how

it's affecting Indigenous communities?

214

: 00:14:24

Walter Flores: Yes.

215

: 00:14:25

And I would say that the political

landscape for at least for Indigenous

216

: 00:14:30

communities around the world, it's

not changed, but it's just exacerbated

217

: 00:14:33

because throughout history, the

level of oppression to Indigenous

218

: 00:14:37

communities has not really changed.

219

: 00:14:39

It's only different peaks

and periods of exacerbation.

220

: 00:14:43

And still nowadays, there are still

Indigenous communities around the world

221

: 00:14:47

that are still being oppressed because

they trying to protect the land, the

222

: 00:14:53

environment where they live, and it's

being oppressed by this transnational

223

: 00:14:58

interest for mining, for monoculture,

and for all these other commodities.

224

: 00:15:04

For Indigenous communities, this

has been going on since colonial

225

: 00:15:08

times, and it's still very present.

226

: 00:15:10

I really hope that this also will give

the opportunity to see that this level of

227

: 00:15:16

a oppression is affecting many different

communities, even non-Indigenous, that

228

: 00:15:22

should realise that we really need to

work all together for solidarity for

229

: 00:15:27

collective well being and for having a

more inclusive societies around the world.

230

: 00:15:32

Lorenda Belone: We've had some

really good movements in the past

231

: 00:15:35

two decades being able to voice an

Indigenous agenda, particularly at

232

: 00:15:41

the National Institutes of Health.

233

: 00:15:43

There has been established a tribal

health office with an Indigenous

234

: 00:15:48

director and there have been

calls, funding opportunities,

235

: 00:15:54

to focus on Indigenous health.

236

: 00:15:57

So, there's been a lot of positive

movement, attention, and research

237

: 00:16:03

that has been conducted for the last

decade through the Indigenous research.

238

: 00:16:09

I guess, there are concerns

there's potential to dismantle.

239

: 00:16:14

So, I think that's a huge concern.

240

: 00:16:16

Dr. Kim Ozano:

241

: 00:16:16

Yeah, a huge concern about reversing

some of the gains that you've worked

242

: 00:16:19

so hard to achieve over the years.

243

: 00:16:22

Understandable, entirely.

244

: 00:16:24

Very sadly, we've come to the end of

our discussion and we could talk all

245

: 00:16:28

day, I think, and explore more issues,

but Lorenda, what would you advise

246

: 00:16:32

for anyone who wants to work with

Indigenous communities moving forward?

247

: 00:16:36

Lorenda Belone: When we teach

the CBPR Institute, one of the

248

: 00:16:40

approaches we use is reflexivity, and

reflexivity is really just reflecting

249

: 00:16:45

on yourself and your actions.

250

: 00:16:48

In working with Indigenous communities,

you really have to reflect on your

251

: 00:16:52

actions and working with communities.

252

: 00:16:55

Whatever you do in the community,

whether it's positive or negative,

253

: 00:17:00

impacts that community and at the end

of the day you get to leave, so if

254

: 00:17:05

you've misstepped, the individuals you

partner with there feel the brunt of it.

255

: 00:17:11

So, as a researcher, reflexivity becomes

very important in reflecting on myself

256

: 00:17:18

and what I'm doing in the community.

257

: 00:17:20

Dr. Kim Ozano:

258

: 00:17:20

A real call to ensure that

reflexivity is embedded in your

259

: 00:17:24

research and your approach.

260

: 00:17:25

Thank you very much.

261

: 00:17:26

Walter?

262

: 00:17:26

Walter Flores: I would recommend the

intellectual humility because millennial

263

: 00:17:31

systems, they are very resilient.

264

: 00:17:34

When we approach the system, understand

that this system have survived over 500

265

: 00:17:39

years of very oppressive colonialism.

266

: 00:17:41

They're still very present

and they are very much alive.

267

: 00:17:44

So, we have so much to learn

from the system as long as we

268

: 00:17:47

keep intellectual humility.

269

: 00:17:50

Dr. Kim Ozano:

270

: 00:17:50

Excellent term, intellectual humility.

271

: 00:17:51

A real call there to engage with that, to

address our own behaviours moving forward.

272

: 00:17:57

Rebecca, take us home with

one final piece of advice.

273

: 00:18:00

Rebecca Rae: I think, we say

this in a lot of our work, is

274

: 00:18:02

how do you be a good relative?

275

: 00:18:04

Because that can be interpreted

in many concepts, right?

276

: 00:18:07

And that's not just to people,

but that's how are we being a

277

: 00:18:10

good relative to our land, to our

animals, to our whole wellbeing.

278

: 00:18:14

And so really when we think about

working collectively, how are we

279

: 00:18:18

being good relatives to each other

so that we're working towards

280

: 00:18:22

the collective wellbeing of all.

281

: 00:18:24

Dr. Kim Ozano:

282

: 00:18:24

Well, that brings us to the end of

this very insightful conversation.

283

: 00:18:27

A huge thank you to Walter, Rebecca,

and Lorenda for sharing their

284

: 00:18:31

knowledge, their experiences, and

reflections of power within Indigenous

285

: 00:18:35

led research and the importance

this has on equity in global health.

286

: 00:18:40

We've heard about the need for

reflexivity, intellectual humility,

287

: 00:18:43

and being a good relative, not

just to each other, but to our

288

: 00:18:47

environments, our knowledge systems,

and for our future generations.

289

: 00:18:52

These are critical considerations

for anyone working in

290

: 00:18:55

health research and policy.

291

: 00:18:57

So, if you found this episode

valuable, please take a moment

292

: 00:19:00

to subscribe, rate, and review on

your preferred podcast platform.

293

: 00:19:04

That really helps us to

reach more listeners and grow

294

: 00:19:06

these important discussions.

295

: 00:19:08

You can also follow us on X

at podcast underscore CCS and

296

: 00:19:13

on Blue Sky at CCS podcast.

297

: 00:19:15

Here, you can get updates,

conversations, and new episode releases.

298

: 00:19:19

We'd love for you to share this episode

with colleagues and with your peers

299

: 00:19:23

and networks as that really helps us

to amplify these very important voices.

300

: 00:19:28

Until next time, stay curious, stay

engaged, and let's continue challenging

301

: 00:19:32

the systems that shape global health.